I have this really vivid memory of finding The Foxy Five when I was in high school. So now I’m reading through your bio, and I’m like, “no ways!”. So, this is like a throwback question. We’re throwing it back and coming back to the present. The Foxy Five was a story about feminism, and friendship and liberation. Even the way it looks, because you’re very conscious of colour — I love that about your work — and you focus on creating images that stick with the viewer. So I wanted to see from you: what growth have you seen and are really proud of from the Foxy Five up until the present.

I am very grateful to The Foxy Five because it is because of that, that I’ve gotten the growth I have gotten, and that was definitely the first thing I had ever made. I made it with my friends, with the women I was studying with — everyone that was around me was involved. And it was such a family affair and I think that it really taught me a lot about collaboration, how to work together, how intentional you should be with your filmmaking, and with the images — how you dress things, how you art direct things, how you light things, how you photograph things. All of that was so, so important to us when we were making The Foxy Five because it was so political. Every decision, we knew, was political. And I feel like I’ve always tried to keep that with me. Even now, when I’m working on more commercial work and bigger campaigns, and telling other stories that I’m not creating or that I am not writing about, I’m always constantly thinking about what it means politically. How every image will be received, how it will affect the viewer, and it’s all because of that.

Your work is very captivating. Your style is very experimental, but also so easy to connect with. And with experimental film, it’s very easy to come fixated on trying to create visually complex work. I love how you bring in the visual [experience], the sonic experience and the narrative [experience], even though the way that it’s weaved may not be completely linear. The Dream That Refused Me, so good! Inside Out — everything! All of your work. So, I just wanted to know, what is your process when putting together work like that?

For me, my process starts with, usually, a collaboration. I’m inspired by the people around me, the people I connect with, the stories that they tell me and the stories that we share. So it always starts with that. And then, from there, I usually go to referencing as well as thinking about what are things that I like, what are things that I want to work on, to create and how do I change up my style a bit because I always try to learn and do something new. And then, once I kind of have a visual idea or a visual representation or treatment of what I want to do, then it is all about finding the right crew — and that’s super important to me. I feel like my process is so much about working with other people.

When you’re directing, what is something you always keep in mind? Especially when representing Blackness and Black women?

I think the important thing is that I have to connect and relate to it, and I also have to feel like I’m a part of that community or I know that community otherwise I won’t ever be able to represent or tell that story properly. And then, if it is about collaboration, it really is then about me finding the best and truest way to portray someone else’s story or direct someone else’s story in a way that feels most authentic to them. I’m just simply bringing a perspective and building an experience around that. I think it’s also important that it’s not just about representation in front of the camera, but also behind the camera too. So finding those people that you work with who are in your community who are also able to tell this story.

It’s great that you’re conscious of that, because a very big problem in South Africa is that you have people telling stories that don’t belong to them, or people who tell these stories and then don’t invite people who are a part of those communities into telling that story. — You’re also in the commercial space! How did that happen? Has it always been an industry you wanted to be a part of or was it serendipitous?

It kind of happened serendipitously where I knew that I wanted to learn in the commercial industry and learn what that was like, so I was jobshadowing a lot of directors and working for production companies. But I really didn’t know if I would ever be able to make commercial work or if my work would translate or be understood by the industry. But things are slowly changing in the commercial industry and I think that they are also realising that they have to get the right people to tell the right stories, and that there has to be representation. And there are interesting stories coming out of that [doing commercial work], but it is the commercial space. It’s not the be all and end all. It’s for now, to get better and work at my craft.

So when doing commercial work, because in that context you’re working for a client, how do you make sure your actual voice is not lost?

Honestly, it really is about choosing and working with the scripts that you connect with you. You get lots of briefs all the time for commercials. And I say no more than I do yes because commercials also take up so much of your time, and energy, your creativity and a part of you too. So I’m always only going to want to do that with the commercials that I somehow connect to or that I feel represents me, the people I want to represent and the stories I want to tell. — Even if it’s something that’s cool, fun, whatever, and not necessarily conscious or trying to say something. At least, if I feel like it’s changing up the way that people like me or the people I’ve been representing, or makes space for new representations, then I’m for it.

What is an obstacle you’re constantly faced with as a Black woman in this industry, and advice would you give to emerging Black femme filmmakers who may encounter the same problems?

I think the biggest problem, but also the biggest blessing, is being underestimated and not being trusted yet. You are not trusted because your place in this industry is very new. [They think that] you don’t know how things are run, or how things have been done for a long time. But it’s also a blessing in a way because you get to really surprise people and you get to set the tone of how you want to do things. But people will either expect too little or too much, and they’re never going to just give you the space to be you. The advice I’d offer is: first find your voice, and do a lot of projects outside of the industry — do a lot of projects for yourself so that you can find your way of telling a story. And then make the industry pick you for that. Don’t just try and get into the industry when you’re just going to be pushed to do things you do not want to do.

What has been your proudest moment as a filmmaker thus far?

… I think my proudest moments would be every time I show my family the work that I do. Sometimes, they don’t always understand but when they actually watch it or share it on the group chat, it makes me feel proud because I see they’re always interested in it and it’s something I’m interested in. So, that makes me proud. But also, recently, I’ve made a conscious decision to take some time off from commercials. I’m writing a feature script and going on a residency and I’m really excited to do that!

I know it’s hard, but what is your most favourite you’ve ever worked on? Favourite film? Favourite commercial? And/or? And what about it made it your favourite — whether it was because of the process or the outcome?

I have to say The Dream That Refused Me because that was such a special project. The cast that I worked with — this dance group called Indoni Dance Group that I had worked with a year before the film was made, we’d made a documentary together in where I got to meet all the students and get to know them and build this relationship with them. And over a year, I was able to keep building this relationship with them. Then I met Siyabonga Jim, who is this poet who would always send me poetry. And then, a year later, I got an opportunity to pitch an idea and then we pitched the idea together and then the film got made and it was just like, this full circle moment! I got to work with Indoni again, we got a bigger budget, and we got to really create something so special that so many people loved and enjoyed, especially when we felt nobody would understand it. But yeah, that’s been the best project for sure.